Step into the world of John Dye, a seasoned marketer whose passion lies at the intersection of creative strategy and cause-driven endeavors. In this enlightening episode, John recounts his journey from serving as the President of Fluid Studio to leading marketing strategies for dΕTERRA, detailing the challenges and the toll it took on his personal relationships. As we delve deeper, we uncover the nuances that make creative work resonate, especially when itβs geared towards non-profits and entities with a mission to uplift and inspire.
John’s unique expertise shines through as he shares his experiences in marketing for religious organizations, notably The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Dive into the backstory of impactful social media campaigns such as ‘Iβm A Mormon,’ ‘Light the World,’ and ‘World’s Largest Nativity.’ John provides insights into the balance of authenticity, strategic outreach, and the role of influencers in amplifying these faith-based messages to a global audience.
Beyond the campaigns and strategies, Johnβs passion for education and community involvement is evident. With a rich history of teaching at institutions like Brigham Young University and his active involvement in various community organizations, John embodies the spirit of giving back. Whether you’re a marketer, a creative, or someone intrigued by the interplay of faith and digital outreach, this episode promises a tapestry of insights, stories, and lessons from a leader in cause-based marketing.
Find John Dye below: Β 
https://skylight.org/
Achieving work-life balance and building a lasting legacy in business are that require dedication,, and a deep understanding of the dynamics of professional life. In today’s fast-paced world, the challenge of finding a harmonious equilibrium between professional and personal life is daunting. However, it is crucial to recognize the importance of maintaining this balance for overall well-being and fulfillment. Redefining success involves broadening the definition to encompass personal relationships, emotional well-being, and overall happiness, shifting the focus from external validation to internal fulfillment. Setting boundaries between work and personal life is vital for maintaining a healthy balance, involving establishing designated work hours, limiting the use of electronic devices during personal time, and creating clear distinctions between professional responsibilities and family commitments.
When it comes to prioritizing family, it is crucial to be fully present and engaged during personal time. Quality over quantity is key, and dedicating focused attention to loved ones, creating meaningful experiences, and fostering strong relationships can significantly enhance overall well-being and satisfaction. Balancing career and family life requires intentional effort and mindfulness, and it is essential to recognize the value of self-care, mental health, and overall wellness in the pursuit of a balanced lifestyle. Open communication with employers, colleagues, and family members can play a pivotal role in establishing a supportive framework that acknowledges the importance of work-life balance, advocating for flexible work arrangements and creating a culture that values the well-being of individuals both in and outside the workplace.
Furthermore, the pursuit of building a lasting legacy in business involves various paths, such as entrepreneurship, agency work, in-house roles, and solopreneurship. Each path offers a unique set of challenges and rewards that contribute to the rich tapestry of the business world. The legacy left by successful business endeavors extends beyond financial success, encompassing the values, work ethic, and impact on future generations. Regardless of the specific role within the realm of business, the journey to leaving a lasting legacy is marked by dedication, resilience, and a commitment to making a positive impact. It is a journey that demands hard work, strategic thinking
Welcome.
To Scroll Sessions. I’m Shane Hickenlooper, and I’m joined by my co-founder, Dan Page.
Together, we’re the brains behind Scroll, a digital marketing agency. In this podcast, we’ll explore the ups and downs of entrepreneurship, marketing, and growing a business.
Join us each week as we share our insights, our failures, and our successes.
With you. Hit that subscribe button to stay updated on the latest episodes of The Scroll Sessions. Welcome, guys, to The Scroll Sessions. We have John Dye in the house today. Very excited to talk with you.
Great to be with you.
John, you’ve got an interesting background. It’s mostly been in marketing, but really with mission-driven companies. You’re a family man with kids, and I feel like I have a big spiritual presence, too. And it’s been a part of your mission, at least as long as I’ve watched you. So we’re excited to have you on the podcast today. Excited to just dive into your history. And where did things start for you, I guess, is where we should start. How did we get into marketing?
Yeah. No, great question. I started off at Ricks back when it was Ricks, guys. So ask your parents.
Now.
B-y-u- Now B-Y-U, Idaho.
My uncle, Rick Page, was the Vice President at Ricks College. I don’t know if you ever ran into him. There are no relation, but they always used to joke because he was up in administration and was there during the transition between Ricks and O-U.
Very cool. Yeah. I was, believe it or not, late ’80s up there. But interestingly enough, I always had a desire to teach English. I served my mission, mission for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to Taiwan and love the country, love the people as most people do when you serve a country and a people. And so decided really to focus on English when I was at Ricks. But as time went on, things changed. But I ended up going to B-Y-U from Ricks. So I ended there, finished graduating with an undergraduate and graduate in English, graduate degree, masters in English, but just didn’t work out from a perspective of teaching English. Business really was where it took me. My occupational life, though, has been a long and circuitous route. I started as probably the most boring job ever a policy and procedure analyst for an insurance company.
Wow.
Yeah. It does sound very exciting. I think I put the whole audience to sleep just by saying that word. That’s awesome. But luckily, the company was bought out by a larger company in Chicago, and so I was able to do my own thing for a little bit then. That’s really when my days at Fluid started. Fluid is basically a small agency in Northern Davis County. We had one big client at the time, which was Orbit Irrigation Products. You might be familiar with them.
Very familiar. Drip line systems.
Exactly. All of that, Underground.
I think that whole building is for lease right now. Oh, is it? Is it really? Is that in Waiton? Well, no, it’s in.
North Salt Lake.
North Salt Lake.
The big orbit building? Yes. They have a big for lease sign on the building. Really? Interesting. I wonder if they moved their whole workforce or something.
Why I need drip lines? That’s not good. I know.
I’m sure they’re still in business, but maybe they just moved somewhere else.
But through that, we were able to do work for Walmart, for Lowe’s, for Home Depot. We got a lot of other things going.
But that was really the start of my agency and my marketing career. Back in the day, guys, though, this is pre-internet almost.
What marketing existed?
I know, exactly. What even was there? So a lot of catalogs, a lot of prints, a lot of other stuff that we would do. But websites were emerging. They were still the 90s.
Just all texted.
Before the dot com. Exactly. The AOL dial-up that you’d have to wait three minutes for.
I’m young. I still remember that sound. And I think I will remember the dial-up sound for the rest of my life.
That could be your ringtone. I like that. I like that. And that goes to the next phase, I would say, in my career, which was social media. Twitter was early on the scene. Facebook, I remember back in the days you had to have a. Edu extension on your email.
Oh, wow, you had Facebook back then?
Yeah. So this was just the burgeoning time of social media. But I think I was one of the first in the Valley, or I like to think I was, that thought a lot of people are using it for consumer to consumer, or friend to friend, or peer to peer. But how does B2C work? How can businesses actually leverage this and capitalize on this? And so we were a very small agency with not a lot of uniqueness. We were a lot of commoditized offerings. Hey, graphic design, hey, web design, hey, print design. I went all in on social media saying, This is a way that we could differentiate ourselves. We started to pick up some local clients and become the agency that was known for that. So that was great. One of our largest clients, though, at the time, was the Missionary Department of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints through Bonneville Communications. Bonneville really is the agency of record, but we would help them with many of their – Helpful. Yeah, with many of the things they needed.
What were you doing for marketing for missionaries? How did.
That work? Good question. So back in the day, again, guys, this goes back to when you were in diapers, probably. They did something called PSAs, public service announcements. It was big on the radio and television. So if you’re familiar with Family, It’s About Time campaign or any of those other ones where you would see- Family, it’s about time. Exactly.. Exactly. Yeah, you could do the drop. Those were things we were involved in. But the PSA specifically, we had a lot of competition. So it’s like free space. It was federally mandated that over the air, commercials on video or radio only had to give a certain amount of the time to PSAs. It was a very competitive space, I guess you could say.
Because it was technically free.
It was free space. You had to think up these elaborate packages you would send to the station manager and other things. We would always create these great 3D boxes with lenticulars, the 3D things when you turn them. Just ways to really stand out from the crowd when we were trying to get placement for this. That was really fun. Later, the missionary department evolved to direct marketing campaigns. Hey, click on here to get a free copy of the Book of Mormon. We’d with a lot of the online ads that they do that way. Anyway, moving along to about 2012, I’d been president of Fluid for about 12 years at the time, but loved what I was doing with the missionary Department and how I was able to be involved. They were looking for somebody to be the digital marketing director. I said, man, I would love that. Yeah, sure. Even though I was president of Fluid, I said I didn’t have a stakeholder or shareholder position.
You had moved up to be president of the company at the time.
Yeah, we had about 20 to 25 people. We would fluctuate depending on the time of year. But the cause-based stuff is really what reved my engine and made me feel alive. I thought, wow, that would be awesome. I went to Bondcom, which only had 12 people at the time. Now they’re, gosh, I want to say over 120. Wow. But that year in 2012, my first year there, you might remember that’s when the Book of Mormon musical came out. And Met Romney was running.
That’s the year I started my mission.
Oh, is that right? Yeah. Same with me.
So that was the Mormon moment in quotes. So we had to do a lot because everybody was asking, What do Metz a Mormon? What do they believe? And so we had to do a lot of work around that. So you might remember the I’m a Mormon campaign.
It’s huge. I served in Europe, and it was all that we did. I’m a Mormon cards, I’m a Mormon videos. It was the main piece of my personal mission.
I still have this little shrine of all my stuff. I have all my I’m a Mormon cards because I’m like, Man, these are going to be worth something nowadays because it’s a swear word to use that term now. Exactly. I have all of those. We would go around and show the… The Long For movie came out in 2014, the.
End of my mission. Yeah, so we’ll get there. That’s The Mere to the Mormons. Okay. Yeah, that was fun. But yeah, 2012 was interesting for us just because Mett and the Book of the Moon and the musical, we did the Playbill piece. Do you remember that? Yeah, you guys ran that. The book is always better.
You were part of that.
Yeah. I wish I could say it was me. There are a lot smarter people in that room than me. But the group I was associated with thought through that. I will applaud the church because traditionally, they would walk away from that.
Right. That was going to be my next question was, where was the- They.
Embraced it.
They embraced it. And were they embracing a lot of what you guys were going for?
I would say.
Because you were trying to do some out.
There things. I’m sure you presented plenty of ideas, and we can get into some of the other cool ideas that you guys were a part of. But this is definitely a catalyst, at least in how the church marketed itself as the first time they’d ever really done something.
This. Yeah, I think really. And we would have people talking about us, right? We put cab toppers on New York City cabs. And back in the day before everyone had smartphones, cabs used to have their little LCD screens and we would be in there. And so we had people late night talk shows talking about this I’m a Mormon campaign. What is this? I’m trying to remember who it was. He was Jewish. That’s why I’m trying to be careful of who I say because I could get this wrong. But he said, I wish the Jewish faith would adopt something similar. Oh, right. Yeah. Anyway, just some groundbreaking stuff. Again, kudos to the church for taking a chance on it. And luckily, it worked out and everything worked well. The I’m a Mormon campaign continued for multiple years. But what I loved about that, though, is it showed the breadth and depth of people who are members of the church or who affiliate with the faith. Oftentimes we think of members of the church, especially maybe pre-2012, as very cookie cutter, right? From a beard to hair to- Tattoos. -tattoos to just general lifestyle decisions.
Yeah, being in a rock band, all the things.
Exactly. Brandon Flowers, Jeremy Jones, the tattooed Mormon, all those people started to come onto the scene.
Yeah. I think really what that showed and what I like about that is it shows there’s a big tent and there’s a place for everyone. It’s not based on how you look, it’s based on what you believe, and not even prescriptive in what you believe. We do believe there are parameters, don’t get me wrong, but I think it started to widen our internal view and the external view of what a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint is and what they believe and who they can be. I love that about it. It just really broadened, I think, some of those tent stakes. But to your point, we moved along. I would say the next big thing that I did personally was Meet the Mormons, the feature film. Again, that was very similar to I’m a Mormon, but six of those put together into a feature-length film. And what was so beautiful about that was I think it gave us an opportunity to really put on, for sure, a national stage, if not a world stage, who we are and what we believe. Totally. And let’s be honest, the majority of the people that saw that film in a theater were members of the church.
Yeah.
However, I believe it had a job to be done, which wasn’t necessarily just missionary or for those not of our faith. You might remember that was right after the Prop 8 issue in California, which again, looking back in time, I think there are multiple people who would say multiple things about that. But I think it really took the air out of the balloon for a lot of members who belong to the faith because we put a stake in the sand on a social issue. And we had to do something to, I think, put air back into that balloon to say, I’m proud to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And these are six representatives who… Somebody who’s black, somebody who comes from Nepal, a woman who lives in South America that’s an MMA fighter or a boxer. And it just showed the breadth and depth of who we are. And it gave a chance for people to say, Wow, this is what we believe. And these are certain people who represent us. And I’m proud of that. So I think it served a very important mission in making people proud of who they were again.
Well, I will say I did baptize someone on my mission that went and saw the Book of Mormon musical. Oh, good. Yeah. And then she was big into theater, was obsessed with it. I served in Arizona, where everyone knows of Mormon, and she asked her friends more about it, and we ended up teaching her. Incredible. So pretty interesting that that was the case. But that was a big thing where I was in Arizona because all the members were trying to really, I think, share that at the time. And I served YSA, so almost all of them were trying to share the-.
The.
Film? The film or the Mormon message campaigns are trying to advocate for the fact that normal people are Mormon. Because I think for a long time, the whole world just assumed that were polygamists and.
All the- We.
Had all been in this for so long. Yeah, all the stigma associated with it. And even from, correct me if I’m wrong, even before then, there was a larger population of the church, even outside of more or less the United States. And that’s only continued to get larger since.
Right. Absolutely.
Yeah. The stigma was like, you’re all 1800s Mormans. Yes, not 2000s Mormons.
Exactly. What they remember is stuff from our history, stuff from our past, right? Yeah. And we have evolved. It’s one thing I love, too, is the gospel, it’s still being restored. We hear that. What we had in 1830 is not the same as we have today, nor will it be the same in 5-10 years.
It’s the marketing program and the church.
Exactly. Having to change focus.
Always having to evolve.
Hey, don’t focus on that old stuff.
Let’s focus on the new stuff. Let’s go to the new.
After bond common, there’s a lot of stuff that you had done at bondcom. You had done stuff with the I Am a Mormon campaign. You also did stuff with giving machines. There’s a couple other ideas that I think went through you and the Boncom team at the time. What were some of the other things that you… I mean, talk maybe a little bit more about the giving machines.
Yeah. So the giving machines, as they exist today, it’s interesting because they evolved out of the Light the World campaign. And you might remember that from when it started, but literally back in 2014, which is the same year that Meet the Mormons came out, we did something in conjunction with Radiant, which is a nonprofit I’ll talk more about later. We created a world record live Nativity. We broke the world record for live people participating in a live Nativity set. That was really the time I was first introduced to the power of influencers, online influencers. We had the piano guys. We had Alex Boyer. We had the Studio C crew. We had The Gairdner Sisters. Some of these people are -have fluctuated.
Little Mere.
Bitch, the LDS. Yeah, and bloggers upon Bloggers who they were just starting to get a toll-hold in the online scene at the time. But people would do daily videos with their kids or spouses that would do things together. What we found out, though, with that was number one, the spectacle was the press, meaning press responded to more of the spectacle, the record-breaking Guinness Book of World Records piece than anything. Because we had two basically deliverables. One was the event. The second was the the resultant video, the official video. But we got press in Yahoo and all… I can’t even remember all the national press outlets who covered it, but this was a chance for us to declare the importance of Christmas and the savior and all those things that we care so passionately about. It put it, it shrouded, or it created a spectacle in a very unique way. Number two, though, was the power of the influencers we had. And the official video that we have is doing very well. Even to this day, I bet you guys wouldn’t guess it, but we get over 50,000 views every 48 hours on that video alone.
Oh, my gosh. And that’s during Christmas. That’s not year-round. Year-round, people are still talking about the video. But what’s interesting, and quite honestly, that’s incredible in and of itself. But the influencers who were there doing their own content and just really elevating this to their followers and their fans really had such an impact. And that opened my eyes to the power of being able to elevate the voice of the individual, specifically member of the church, to be able to talk about their faith in a way that they feel comfortable about and that’s brand centric to what they want to share. I think that’s true missionary work to me is we shouldn’t be prescribing how people talk about the gospel because what’s important to you is different than what’s important to you, Shane. It’s different than me, right? I’m an older person, and the way that I think about things is much different, but we can all do it in an appropriate way for our personal brand in a way that’s true to the things that really ring true to us, why it’s important to us. And so that really helped us understand, wow, to harness the power of the influencer, not only the influencer with a lot of followers, but just the layperson that is on social media but can share that.
Specifically with Light the World, the goal was to talk about ways to think outside yourself during probably the most important time of year as we see it from a service perspective. And so 25 days, 25 ways, something small that you could do every day, as simple as a smile to helping somebody cross the street to whatever that active service is.
Yeah, and share it.
And share it right online and do that. And so from that, though, emerges the idea of the giving machines, which I think now has probably eclipsed what the original idea for Light the World was just from an awareness perspective. Somebody in the office, again, not me, somebody much smarter than me, said traditional machines where you get a pop or a candy bar, it’s a transaction. You put something in, you get something out. Usually for yourself. Exactly. I’m hungry, I’m thirsty, I want something. His idea was, well, what if you put something in and you were able to get all the tactical or, excuse me, tactile-Tangible. -tangible benefits of seeing something drop, those cards that drop, but you’re giving to someone else. You’re able to give to somebody else that way. And the first year we did that, we specifically did it in, I believe, two locations. Maybe it was just one. We did it one location in Salt Lake City, but the lines were out the door.
Yeah, I’ve seen those. And then you’ve opened… You had one in New York City? You’ve had a couple internationally.
Haven’t you? Yes. So London, the Philippines, Arizona always has one every year. Obviously, Orum. Temple Square. Yeah. So it’s grown. Last year, they started to grow again post-pandemic in number of locations. I can’t remember the exact number this year, but I was just talking to them the other day. I want to say it’s 30-plus. And even last year, they started with a mobile giving machine, like in the Southeast, I think it is, where they would go from Atlanta to somewhere in the Carolinas. So basically two days at each location. But what a great way to talk about the importance of giving back and being able to experience that as a family, right?
Yeah, totally. I think the church had done a follow-up campaign about, more or less, number of goats, number of sanitary kits, et cetera, that were given or I guess maybe explain to people what were the options in the giving machines?
Yeah.
Good question. And I’ll answer your question. They always follow up. It is the church, I believe, the welfare department of the church that will talk about, Hey, this year we raised this much in this location, and each location has multiple nonprofits associated with it. They’ll literally give those huge checks you see it sweepstakes or something. They’ll often do that because it’s a nice way to share what they’re doing. But yeah, some of the options, some of the biggest options you guys might remember, but it’s buy a goat for somebody or a duck.
How much was it to buy a goat?
I want to say it was $80. Okay. The goal there was to show that it’s not a meal for a day. It’s the old adage of teach a man to fish and you feed him for life. Giving them a goat, they can sell the milk and they have the meat at the proper time. They can make cheese. Exactly. There’s multiple things you can do that way.
Lawn care.
Exactly.
Lawn care. I need a goat in my backyard right now.
Yeah, the African lawn care. If you don’t want to mow their lawn, you just put a stake in the ground and the goat circles. Yeah, exactly. So it works out well. But yeah, United Way is always a big one. But traditionally, they work through local nonprofits, and then each location also has two national traditionally. So one is usually a clean water option and then another option.
Oh, that’s very interesting.
So it’s beautiful in the fact that they try to rotate those local options every year so that the church and the associated entities get to work with. It’s hard to choose who to work with, right?
There’s a lot of needs and a.
Lot of places. Exactly. Why stay with the same people year after year? Let’s share the love.
Yeah, I guess. Part of the reason that I had asked that question is because when you do work for a church, for example, because you worked at bondcom, and the church was Boncom’s client, is that correct?
Yes.
But bondcom was technically owned by the church, so you worked for the church, right? Yeah. What is a KPI when you work for a church in marketing? Because I think a lot of times our KPI is I want to get a sell, I want to get a lead. When you work for a church marketing department, it’s like, Did we get a baptism? But you can’t track that. What are your KPIs?
Yeah. You’ve, I think, hit the nail on the head. At the end of the day, the goal is a soul. As the church thinks about it, what does it take to get not only somebody baptized, but to come into Christ? That means much more than just baptism. But how do you help bring people into the church? And there are obviously things associated with keeping people in the church as well, right? Yeah, retention. Because, yeah, you can’t lead them through the front corral and then the back gates open and they’re out the back. So traditionally, as they look at it, it really is around people, around headcount. How do we get people in and help them see the value in what the gospel can bring to their life? And how do we keep.
Them active? So they would track analytically numbers rising in certain areas that you’re running campaigns.
Right. And that was key for us, specifically in some of the early days around I’m a Mormon, is trying different areas of the country specifically.
I want to see Arizona.
Yeah. And looking at outdoor campaigns and radio campaigns, television over the top, digital campaigns, etc. How do we bring people in? What are they clicking on? What are they most interested in? What’s sticky to them? When they arrive at the site, what are they most interested in? Is it family? Is it a belief in Jesus? Is it, hey, I need help, temporal help? What are those key things that are needed?
Well, it’s really interesting because I’m thinking of this also as a marketer, but also as someone who has served a mission too, especially during this time. You may back me up on this, but I felt like there was a definite, and I’m also comparing to my ancestors that serve missions and their experiences. There’s a lot more of an emphasis I felt like in keeping track of the numbers and reporting numbers all the way from just me as a single missionary all the way up top. That numbers were very attractive. The church has everything in its place. Everything is very much tracked. But I felt like there was a definite emphasis.
Especially during.
These campaigns. I will say I feel like the way I felt on my mission was like a celebrity because the Mormon message was going out so strong at the time, like the I’m a Mormon campaign, changing the stigma around who they are. Then also a question that I would have for you is like, Brandon Floars does an I’m a Mormon message. What impact does that have on a certain type of community? Or Jeremy Jones, a professional snowboarder with long hair who listens to rap music, does one. All of a sudden it’s like, What impact does that have? Because I remember there was that document leaked or something from the church about the people who were pulling away from the church. They had this big circle around John DeLin is the biggest person to take people away. But that makes me curious on the other side at that same time, who are the people in the Mormon messages that were pulling more people in?
Yeah. It’s interesting because we, specifically with Brandon Flowers, we weren’t allowed to do any advertising around his… He said, I just want this to be fully organic. And he did extremely well. He did extremely well.
He was one of my favorite artists of the time.
Well, the Killers are huge, especially not only in the US, but internationally, too.
We thought it gave us permission to listen to.
The Killers on the mission. Yeah, exactly. That was your PD soundtrack. Yeah, so he did extremely well. We would have just basic run of the mill people do extremely well. There was an African gentleman who did sculpture that did extremely well. When we put money behind him, it resonated with what people were looking for. And we had people with special needs. Or special need children on the spectrum or something that did really well. But I would say it caught me by surprise the types of individuals that performed really well in the campaigns. That it was just somebody next door. It’s your next door neighbor, right? Somebody that you could really link arms with and you felt like you could.
Really- Relatable. It’s very humanistic.
You know what? The one we tried to show the most, maybe even knew this person at the time because he was a black guy that was a bishop in London. Oh, interesting. We showed that to everyone because we’re like, I.
Don’t know who he is, but I know who you’re talking about.
It’s in Europe. They’re not white.
Yes, exactly. We are.
A world church. That was what we tried to show.
I know who that person is, but my mission covered London South. It was like the Thames comes in and splits London in half, and I was all south. A big portion of the main part of London, and I’m trying to think of the… What’s the one park I’m trying to… Hyde Park. Hyde Park Chapel and everything. The main central London is north of the Thames. Oh, and that must be where he was. Yeah, because he was Hyde Park Chapel.
But I always thought on my mission, because I feel like my mission is the first place I got interested in marketing because of what you guys were doing. Oh, interesting. I just thought I was like, This is unique. I’m noticing the way that they’re going about this.
I don’t know if I’m going to take us to a new tangent, but the church rebranded. So maybe talk us through.
I.
Don’t know if you were a part of that or if you were still at Boncom at the time, but that was a major 180 from what had been the case for 10 years, 10, 20 years.
Absolutely. Yeah, that was right before I went to Doterra because I was over the marketing for North America. Market for them for three and a half years. But prior to going, that’s when that was changing. I was over the social media for mormon. Org at the time. We grew up from 400,000 to 5.2 million. And then we get this, hey, we are- Oh, we’re shutting this down. We’re doing something different here. Again, kudos. Again, I believe in being prescient. I believe in revelation. I think good things have happened. But from a marketing perspective, when we’re known as being Mormans-.
Taking the sales out of- -ripping- -taking the wind out of sales.
Exactly, ripping that rug out from underneath you. That’s the first initial thoughts. It’s like all the SEO, all the things that we’ve been building up. But again, there’s great things happening. Specifically, when they thought about this, as you guys are probably well aware, we wanted to become more Christ centric, right? Yeah. And come into Christ and Church of Jesus Christ. So it made sense why they did it. I don’t think we’ve missed a step. From a marketing perspective, I still think we have a lot of people who refer to us as Mormans. So anyway, it can be questioned whether that’s left a gap in the online space of what people will find when they look for that term, right?
Because I’ll probably find now a lot of people use the term Mormon that are detractors. John the Lynn’s podcast uses that. That’s going to more pull people in the other direction.
There’s still some friendlies out there. For example, I run a podcast called Mormon Life Hacker. Excuse me, not a podcast, a blog. I actually didn’t change it. I created a second name that is Latter-Day Life Hacker. But Woman, Life Hacker still draws people in. Because again, I felt it was best not to abandon it. I don’t feel like I’m going against anything that was asked of us, but there is something to be said about responding to people’s searches.
Well, and it’s the entire history of our church. Right. It’s in the name of a main book of scripture that we use. It’s been associated with the church as long as it’s existed.
Right.
Your transition to Doterra, what was that like?
Yeah, the transition to Doterra was interesting. As you mentioned previously, I like to think that I’m really cause-based, that that really revs my engine. So Doterra, much different, right? They are a multilevel marketing or a direct network marketing company here in Utah. One of the best, by the way, I would say I wouldn’t work for many of them, but they, I believe, are salt of the earth people. The people who founded them, and the people who work there have nothing but wonderful things to say about them. I will even say their product is good, and they were growing. Over a billion in North America, and I was asked to oversee some of the marketing with that company. And so I thought I’ve probably got, just based on my age then, which was late 40s at the time, I thought I’ve got- You.
Look like you’re in your early 40s still.
Yeah, I was late 40s, and I said, I’ve probably got one more kick in me to do something. And so I was there for three and a half years, loved my time there. At the end of the day, though, they have something that’s very cause based. They have a philanthropic arm, which is wonderful. I got to work with a little bit. I wish I had a chance to work with it more, and I might.
Still be there. I like to say that Doterra is like Marriott. Every Marriott hotel has a Book of Mormon in it. Every Utah home has Doterra.
Essential oils in it. Exactly. There’s got to.
Be some in everything. I grew up with a very good friend of mine in high school and even post high school. Her mother was very involved with the organization, oversaw a lot of relationships in Asia and grew up very close to her and her mom. It was just an awesome opportunity for them and their family. Doterra completely changed their family’s life.
Absolutely. I will say this, the community that many people find in organizations like that are unlike anywhere else I’d been. One thing I noticed from social media perspective was the church would get X amount of engagement on social media. Doterra would get 3X the amount of engagement. Really? I would not have guessed that.
I would not have guessed that. Mlms are like a religion.
They are. To many people, that is their people. If you go to convention, it’s very similar to General Conference for a member of the church. Everybody gets together. It’s Mecca. Exactly.
You’ve got – It’s the tract.
Of Mecca. Yeah. Yeah, you’ve got a lot of things happening. Again, they’re doing wonderful things in the world, have nothing but great things to say. I will say, though, I had that cause based hole in my heart that was there for three and a half years. Yeah, for sure. I had an opportunity to, I previously mentioned Radiant. I had a chance to go back to a sister company of Bondcom, which is the Radiant Foundation. The Radiant Foundation, I think, is very aspirational in its desires. It’s literally a nonprofit. It’s under the DMC structure, but it’s a nonprofit. We’re able to leverage that nonprofit status to enter some doors that we wouldn’t otherwise be able to enter. But there’s two main efforts, I would say, underneath the Radiant Foundation. One is known as the Faith and Media Initiative. Just talking about that briefly, as most of you know, when we have the media on one hand and faith on the other, a lot of.
Times it’s this, right?
The media doesn’t understand all the faith or it’s click for controversy, right? It’s like we need the clicks to make the money, right? Or we don’t fully understand what a certain faith tradition believes, like the Baha’i or Muslim beliefs or Jewish beliefs or Christian beliefs, even for that matter. Because they don’t understand it, they make assumptions or they’re on deadlines, so they don’t reach out and ask for clarification. Because of that.
We might get -Which is why a lot of churches don’t do marketing. You don’t see Jehovah’s or Scientology or the Catholics doing as many campaigns as our faith does.
It’s very unique. Yeah, it is unique that way. The goal of faith in media is really to help those two parties understand one another better and break down those barriers that are causing faith, in general, to be reported accurately or purposefully misconstrued in media. Then the other half of that piece under Radiant Foundation is Skylight, which is what I’m working with now. I’m the executive director of Skylight. Our goal is basically to help the youth of the world connect to a higher power. Regardless of what that higher power is, for us, we call it God, Christian-based God, or other religions and even call it God. But it could be whatever the Jewish equivalent or the Muslim equivalent, or the Baha’i equivalent is because we believe that navigating life’s uncertainty is tough. It’s something that everyone faces, specifically, though, in your younger years, when you’re dealing with anxiety, loneliness, self-esteem issues that are, let’s be honest, largely caused by social media. We believe the device that we hold in our hands causes problems. We also believe it can be a solution to the problem. We’ve created an app called Skylight. It’s a web app, iOS, Android.
We also have social properties around that that help the youth of the world to connect with the higher power, but specifically through a mental health lens. The anxiety, the loneliness, if they want to deal with that, we believe that it’s more than calm or headspace can provide. We believe there has to be a thread of divinity in that to really truly center yourself and make the change you need. We also realize clinical, there’s.
Depression- There has to be workplace.
Yeah, and even medication at times. But based on a person’s mental health journey, if you can catch it early on and if you can create, just like we go to the gym for our physical health, if you go five days a week, it’s better than three days a week. Well, if you’re able to do an affirmation, a meditation, a prayer, spiritual yoga, spiritual movement, or listen to spiritually-focused music, we believe those are the types of activities that can really align people in a way that will help keep them spiritually well over time. Again, a very big, audacious goal. Our team is small, but truly believe we can make a difference because we call them Gen Zennials. You guys are in this generation, right? Gen Z and Millennials, where it overlaps. People 18-35. We truly believe that if we can make a difference with this generation, you guys are going to make up one-third of the workforce by the end of this decade. By 2030, in less than literally seven years, you guys are making up one out of every three people that are working at a Starbucks or corporate America. And if we don’t stop the epidemic that is plaguing young people, right?
Yeah, it’s going to be a.
Serious issue. It’s just going to compound. Yeah. And we’ve got to figure out a way to really address these issues. Our thesis statement is we can do this through connection with divinity and ways that will help you create that centeredness that you need in your life.
I love that. And I think you guys are well on your way to that. I know when I saw you in Kron Berger the other day, and we were talking about Chris Carlson is involved with Radiant, too, and we were in the same neighborhood. I didn’t realize that you two were together until fairly recently. At least I’d say that same company.
Actually, Chris, back in 2014, that seems like so long ago, but he helped do that world’s largest live Nativity. And again, that eventually became like the world. So cool.
That’s awesome. You went through your whole career journey in the last 30 minutes we’ve been talking. How you obviously are a family man, too. How does family fit into your life? And how do you mix personal, professional? Do you keep them separate? Do you feel like you have good balance? How do you manage all of that together?
Yeah. So work-life balance and the myth that that is, I spent multiple years specifically in the agency where I think I ate, slept, drank, breathed that. And that was a form of success and took my eyes off the prize, I think, some of the things that matter most. And because of that, ended up in a divorce. I learned through that. I’ve come out on the other side. I’m happily remarried, and we have ours and mine.
Hers.
And mine. And it’s going great. But yeah, I do think that there are some red flags that I saw that I’m a better person now because now I know I stepped over that line in some way, shape or form, not spending enough time, not focusing enough attention, and because of that relationship suffering.
What were the boundaries you’ve set up now to maybe protect yourself from red flags in.
The future? Yeah, definitely time. There are some times that I work 10, 11 hours a day still. I would say those are the exception, not the rule. When I’m off the clock, I really try to do my best to give laser-like attention to my family. Because again, if you think about the amount of time you spend with your coworkers versus your family during your working years, it’s just amazing. That’s significant. Especially with youth and young kids, and they grow up and you blink and they’re grown. So being able to, I think, focus on those things. I also think redefining success for me was important.
Oh, yeah, expand on that.
Yeah. I see this in younger entrepreneurs who it’s what they drive and it’s the paycheck they bring in. I’m not saying that’s not important. I think I went through that phase. I would expect everybody that’s an entrepreneur or has a desire to achieve something in their life will go through it. Hopefully, they don’t go to the point maybe that I went to, right, that caused relationships to break. But I think being able to say success at the end of the day for me is when I’m on my deathbed, I’m not going to wish I had sold another widget or done something. I won’t be thinking about the people at work. It’s like, who’s going to be near my deathbed and attending my funeral?
It’s your legacy that you’re.
Leaving behind. Right. Because what’s written on your epitaph when you pass away or in your obituary, like your legacy. And love that line from Hamilton, right? The musical, if you guys have seen it. But I think everybody thinks about their legacy. What are they going to leave behind? And who will remember them in five years and 10 years? And what will they say about them and what are the kind things they’ll say and what are the other things that they’ll say. At the end of the day, if I dropped dead from a heart attack today, somebody else would jump into my current role and do some things better and maybe some things not as well. But at the end of the day, who are the lives you’re really impacting? It’s those people that are closest to you that way.
I’ve had a slight existential crisis with that lately in my life, even where my wife, who we do not have kids, who’ve been married eight years, and my wife quit her job about a year ago to start a business. I had encouraged her to do that because I did it and it worked out well for me. Now I have an office, I have employees that I got to pick, so I like them. I like spending my time at work with my staff, where my wife is sitting at home grinding and building this business alone. I remember building my business alone, but having my wife there a lot of the time to support me where I’m not there to support her as much because I’m working on my own. Me and my wife struggle with infertility as well. Then I know she’s at home in her own thoughts alone, thinking about that all day where I’m very easily lost in the work. I think that you hit it right on the head when you say, When you’re home, you have to separate. As an entrepreneur, or not just as an entrepreneur, as a specific personality type, which I have, and I think we probably all have it.
A lot of entrepreneurs have.
It, yeah. It’s hard. I wake up in the morning, and to be honest, first thing I do is check my email.
It’s hard to not let it be all-consuming.
Yeah, especially when you own it and your next paycheck does rely on if you do check your email on time and.
Make sure you get something. Well, in things that you’re dealing with, too, not to beat a dead horse, but you have other individuals.
Livelihoods- That.
Depend on us. I remember at Fluid specifically, when we had 20-25 people, it’s like, if I don’t perform, if I don’t bring in that next client, if I don’t do this, if I don’t do that, not only do I negatively impact the people relying on me from a family perspective, but those that are at work and their families that rely on them.
Yeah. Something I said.
This morning.
In my head at the gym was, Why is this so hard sometimes? I’ve been through this for years and I said to myself, It’s because I have 12 mortgages. Seriously. I have 12 mortgages and I have this many mouths to feed. It is the way you almost have to look at it when you’re in a business. Yeah, I think also redefining success is critical because for the longest time, I was defining success based off of what I had seen, which was successes, your car, successes, your money, your.
House, right?
It’s the comparison game, and we know comparison.
Is the thief of joy. Keeping up with the Joneses is very real. I think in Utah- Joneses are so rich. Yeah, the Joneses. Goodness. Who are those Joneses? I always want to want up in everybody the Joneses are. But I think in Utah, it’s very cultural, too. I think for whatever reason in our religion with being perfect or whatever you want to put.
A name on it- Well, we get together every week.
Yeah, we talk a lot. -you want to put a name on it. There’s a lot.
Of connections. Community is faced, yeah, for sure. One thing that helped me redefine that was I thought to myself, there will always be somebody underneath me. Whether that’s a paycheck, whether that’s level of car, whether that’s house size, whether that whatever it is. And there will always be people above me. So at the end of the day, I just thought to myself, What brings you joy? I think that’s another thing, right? Because the older I get, the more simple I’m becoming. And I used to think, Gosh, people that spend time in gardens and doing stuff, just Simpletons, right? I love that. Yeah. The older I’m getting, it’s just the peace, the tranquility, taking a hike up Big Cottonwood or Provo Canyon or just some of that where it used to be, I need to see John’s name on LinkedIn X number of times or in the press X number of times. I think the more simple you become and you realize the value in the simple, the essentialism, if you’re familiar with that term, just really divesting yourself of things that don’t bring you joy or value and focusing on the things that do.
I know, that’s awesome. Maybe to change our tangent to wrap up, we have maybe some rapid fire tip questions. One of which would be, you have a lot of experience in the influencer space, a lot of experience just in marketing, but especially in partnerships, bringing two different entities together, for the most part. What makes a good influencer program and what makes it fail as well?
Yeah, just some quick thoughts there. Sure. Great question. Number one, if it’s transactional, it will most likely fail.
What do you mean by that?
If it’s literally, Hey, I charge $6,000 for a reel, and you need to pay me for that. I think where I’ve seen the most synergy, sorry for the buzzword, but where I’ve seen the most good things happen is when somebody’s values or preferences align with the brand. Whether that be with the church, I’m an active member of the church, therefore I believe in this and this, and I’ll put it in a brand centric way out to my followers, or I love this oil, or I love this product or whatever, and it does this for me. And if they say that from the heart, if they really believe it, if you’re not just paying them to say it, then that will come across much differently than, Hey- It’s a paid promotion. Yeah, this is #ad.
How do you get people to do that? Because you still want to compensate them if you’re working with big influencers. Nobody’s doing anything for free, right?
Sure. One of the things that I found is you start number one, smaller scale. I’ve worked with micro influencers more than macro for the majority of what I do, just because you can figure out who really is in it for the paycheck or who believes in the product. They need the paycheck, don’t get me wrong, product first, paycheck second. Then you can grow with them. The campaigns that I’ve done outside the church, I would say the majority of the people that I’ll continue to work with are about 15-20 % per campaign, and then their followers grow in number, and therefore I can pay them more. And those are the long term relationships, more brand ambassadors even than influencers because they believe in.
What we’re doing. Like active, ongoing partnership.
Would you also recommend getting a sell or more affiliate codes or links that they have and they make money based off of how much revenue they bring in based off of $6,000, Please Post a reel, which one of those would perform better? The affiliate one?
Yeah, I would say yes. I would say, for the most part, understanding your question, if they have something in it because they get a certain amount, if you just pay them, whether it’s X, Y, or Z amount versus, hey, if you really think about your content and you’re invested in your content and you could make more. If you’re charging me X amount for this reel, but you could make Y amount, which is above X amount because you really think through your content, put your heart into it. Ninety-nine times out of 100, I’ve seen that do better. Now, that’s a little tricky because sometimes they just want the guaranteed paycheck, but their heart, I’ve seen traditionally, isn’t into it. They’re doing it for the transaction.
Right. I think a good place to always start, at least with influencers. And I was in the influencer space for four or five years before we got to scroll, I think it starts at that finding the affinity between values. It’s the values, the values of their brand, values of the other brand. Now, what happens later when those values don’t line up?
Yeah, that’s very interesting because from a brand perspective, think of nonprofits, specifically the church, right? There are some names in the news today of individuals who have been very closely associated with the church that have large followings, either online or in person or both, that now do not align with the values specifically of the church. So distancing is taking place. And that’s why you have to be careful. You have to be careful of who you align with and who you have represent the banner of whatever your organization and brand is because you are taking a chance. Personally, I would say the benefits far outweigh the detriments because I would take 100 people speaking for my cause and aligning with my cause than the one outlier that doesn’t. But know that you’re going to have some of those people. If they’re promoting your product, your cause, your effort, there are some people that are going to start using Young Living, Essential Oil instead of Doterra, right? The competitor or something.
The helicopter.
He flies. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. There will be some of those. But again, I would say overall, if you can get a coalition of people talking for you, you’ll have some outliers, but it’s worth the cost.
Yeah. Sometimes you don’t really have a choice either. You might just have this product that is fantastic that a lot of people love, and people talk about it very often because they’re a fan of it, but they’re not getting paid for it necessarily. Then one day, that person all of a sudden does something completely against it. My example would be eight passengers, where she’s not necessarily getting paid by the church to say, Hey, I am an advocate for the church. She’s not an influencer for the church. But she just is an advocate for it because she believed in it for so long, and now she’s caught up in it, regardless, as an influencer for the church that has fallen away. Not fallen away, but has-.
Has done something. I think most people, in or out of the church would say, You’re crazy. Yeah, why did you do that? Why did you do that? That’s not right.
How do you deal with that? That’s one question I’d have on the… Is how do you deal with controlling the narrative?
Yeah, and that’s a very good question. I’ll mention Tim Ballard here as well. That’s one thing that’s happening right now. It’s current. Tim, former, I believe, President of Operation Underground Railroad, O-U-R, anti human slavery, stepped away from the organization, but has recently seen himself being distanced from the church or the church.
Distancing himself from them.
They’re deleting all this stuff on their website.
Now, that’s one thing I take Umbridge with. I would come out and say a relationship did exist. If it did, go ahead and say it did exist. But everybody changes, everyone evolves. And if somebody is doing something that doesn’t fit the role of the organization, say, You know what? It did exist. Now this person is not doing something that we see as being within the fold or within our community standards. I’ll put it that way. But to say that a relationship never existed, I question the validity of that because truly something did exist. And to be able to say, You know what? That relationship was in the past, which I believe was in the official statement from the Church, I think that’s most accurate. Hey, a relationship did exist. Currently, it doesn’t. To delete the stuff, it makes sense, I think, from a PR perspective. But I think it makes even more sense to be able to say, Hey, guys, we are doing this. We’re divesting ourselves. We’re stepping away. And because there were things that existed, we’re now scrubbing those.
Yeah, makes sense. So to control the narrative, it’s more you say, This has always been our stance. This is what’s happened. And yes, there was a relationship, but now we’re distancing ourselves instead of trying to avoid or hide.
Yeah. If you try to whitewash it or it never existed, first of all, truth, I think, is always the best way to go, right? And I’m not saying anybody’s being not truthful here, but I am trying to say, always start with the truth, say what happened. And then if you need to take actions like scrubbing stuff off your website, totally get it.
Because we’ve had to scrub websites. For just SEO purposes themselves.
Yeah.
We’ve had bad apples that companies that their CEO will call us and say, You got to remove this person and remove everything about them just because we don’t want to be associated with them anymore. Right. And that’s.
Totally fair. Former employee or whatever. It’s like, Please get them off our website. I think it’s a good maybe transition and maybe a final fault, like a follow-up question, pulling in everything that we’ve talked about. You’ve worked in agencies, you’ve worked as a consultant on yourself and for other companies and influencer marketing programs. You’ve also worked in-house.
I’msure. How do you compare the three? What’s your favorite? For someone starting in marketing, where would you suggest starting? Maybe to tie all of that together.
Great question. Yeah. Everything has their benefit and.
Their.
Detriment. Yeah, pros and cons to everything. For sure, I loved the differentiation of what I was able to work on from an agency perspective. Every day seemed like a new adventure. You’d bring in a new client or a new project with the same client. The brief was different. The KPIs, the key performance indicators for each one was different. That really to be able to deal with that differently every day and think left brain, right brain, left brain, right brain, I think was incredible. I love the agency speed, too. Younger, when I had more adrenaline and I could do things, but I love the speed.
Our ad buyers need to hear this. They have 30 customers now each.
Wow, good. Wow, that’s incredible. Good for you guys. It also is tough, though, because again, it’s easy to get things out of balance potentially. And that’s what I found in my agency days. Being in-house, I think, is great, too, because, again, you get to see the long, sustained effort on something to really do something, I think, meaningful. And that’s what I was able to experience with bondcom, mormon. Org, back in the day, now coming to Christ and some of the campaigns we did. And even now with Radiant, with the skylight effort, being able to truly see difference. And you can literally, almost palpably see things different month by month in the people you reach and the way that things are moving that way. So that’s great. So in-house is wonderful. From an entrepreneurial perspective or solopreneur perspective, it’s great. A lot of different pressures exist there. Again, I truly haven’t, I don’t think I’ve been an entrepreneur or solopreneur because it was probably more in my agency days. But again, just the sheer pressure you felt, as we discussed earlier, for not only your family, but for the families that rely upon you. Where’s that next paycheck coming from?
Am I going to be able to make payroll? Some of these other things were always creating the ulcers that I dealt with back then.
I need to get an MRI.
Or something. You better have good insurance. But again, there’s something that comes with that, the adrenaline. Again, the adrenaline rush, I think. And being able to say you built something, I think for you guys specifically to be able to say we built scroll, something that again, when we talk about legacy, that should be part of it. That Yeah, for sure. Whether you continue with it in the future or decide to go your separate ways or one becomes partner and buys the other one, whatever you decide to do with that, you can always look back with pride on what you have built.
Yeah. Right? Yeah. No, we’re super lucky. We have built a pretty amazing business.
For ourselves. Somehow made it four years together, coming up on five. The fact that you said that my dad sold his company a year and a half ago, and I watched him build it from the ground up 18, 19 years. I remember him paying me $8 an hour to build stuff in his office just to put stuff together for him so that he had a side table. I went there last week because they’re closing down the office because they don’t need that office anymore because they have a headquarters somewhere else. I was just looking at stuff being like, Maybe I’ll take some of this put in my office. I am not a sentimental person. My wife was looking at me like, Why are you so sentimental right now? You care so much. Because it’s true that it was legacy. It wasn’t about the company. It was about watching my dad work hard. It was about watching him build something. It was about him being at my soccer games. Like teaching me how to create that same life of freedom, but hard work. I think that that is so true that in any business capacity, whether you’re internal solopreneur, agency, whatever it is, the type of legacy that you leave for your kids and for.
Your future- It’s everything.
-is.
Huge. It’s absolutely everything. Thank you for sharing your story and how you got to where you are at today. Absolutely. We appreciate you coming and being on.
Yeah, it’s been great.
How can people connect with you and find you, John?
Yeah. So on the socials, I’m usually DAIjo, D-Y-E-J-O. Linked in, of course. Love being on LinkedIn. And sorry, young guys, I’m still on Facebook.
I think we’re on.
Facebook, bro. Yeah, that’s true. I’m still doing the Facebook thing, but Instagram. I actually got off of TikTok with some stuff, but that keeps me entertained beyond anything else. I love that platform. Find me at diejoe on LinkedIn, John die.
Awesome.
Thank you again, John, for coming on.
That’s a wrap. All right. Thanks, guys.
Thanks, guys. Thanks, guys.
Thank you. Thank you.
dyejo
Guest Author
J Washburn
